Unexpected fundamentalist argument
I came across an argument from a fundamentalist that I really wasn’t prepared for. It’s not that it’s a terribly solid argument, but because I wasn’t expecting it, I was at a loss for how to respond. The idea was basically this: Genesis is the most important part of Christianity, because without it, there would be no need for Jesus. The rationale behind this is that Jesus was the answer to original sin, and without that we wouldn’t need him. This person even used the wording that without Genesis, Christianity and the whole of the new testament is just a bunch of stories — nice stories, but myths.
Now, I understand the reasoning, but I’m used to questions that are about the authenticity of the gospels. There are all kinds of debates that talk about whether or not we can believe them, who they were written by, when they were written, how the canonical gospels were chosen and the gnostic gospels were rejected… lots of interesting topics. But he seemed to be saying that it doesn’t matter. The new testament is (I guess?) evidenced by Genesis, rather than evidence for it. Huh.
It was honestly something I hadn’t even thought to prepare for. I would say that the credibility of Genesis is already in doubt to all but the most die-hard literalists. The book is how old? Written by who? Changed and translated when, how, why, and by whom? But those aren’t facts. And anyone who’s debated with a fundamentalist knows that, unfair though it be, the burden is on you to know the facts, because their default position when you don’t is: “I win”. It’s not like a gospel where you can say, “So and so couldn’t have written this, and it wasn’t formalized for 100 years. Then it was chosen by popular vote to be in the bible 300 years after that.” Nope, all you have is “How on earth can you put so much trust in that ancient myth?” That just lets them (fallacious as it is) smugly say “God says so. It’s in the divinely-inspired bible.”
I like to think that I’m fairly quick on my feet with most topics, but I just didn’t really come up with what I would have liked at that moment. What would you say?
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Well, this argument is odd.
Just because, though, we can say that Genesis tells us we “need” Jesus says nothing of his existence.
“Oh, so Exodus is the reason we have Levitcus! Oh, this must be true!” This is clearly faulty reasoning and proves nothing.
Jesus, though, did not only come, according to the Bible? because of original sin. He also did a good deal to make more people believe in his father and sacrificed? himself in order to get rid of all sins and “show us how much he loves us.”
The whole story is crazy, anyway, in my opinion.
Because they do it best…
From GodIsImaginary.com and WhyWontGodHealAmputees.com:
“Hello, my name is Jesus. I love you deeply. I have loved you since you were conceived in the womb and I will love you for all eternity. I died for you on the cross because I love you so much. I long to have a loving personal relationship with you. I will answer all of your prayers through my love. But if you do not get down on your knees and worship me, and if you do not EAT MY BODY and DRINK MY BLOOD, then I WILL INCINERATE YOU WITH UNIMAGINABLY TORTUOUS PAIN IN THE FIRES OF HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY BWAH HA HA HA HA HA!”
“Those evil humans down on earth. I hate what they are doing. All this sin…
Since I am all-knowing I know exactly what the humans are doing and I understand exactly why they commit each sin. Since I created the humans in my own image and personally programmed human nature into their brains, I am the direct author of all of this sin. The instant I created them I knew exactly what would happen with every single human being right down to the nanosecond level for all eternity. If I didn’t like how it was going to turn out, I could have simply changed them when I created them. And since I am perfect, I know exactly what I am doing. But ignore all that. I hate all these people doing exactly what I perfectly designed them to do and knew they would do from the moment I created them. I HATE IT! I tried killing all the humans and animals once in the flood. That certainly did not fix the problem.
So here’s what I am going to do. I will artificially inseminate a virgin. She will give birth to an incarnated version of me. The humans will eventually crucify and kill the incarnated me. That, finally, will make me happy. Yes, sending myself down and having the humans crucify me — that will satisfy me. I feel much better now.”
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Thanks so much!
I agree: you can’t use the bible to prove the bible. But is this form really that new of a position deep down? It’s the same old, “God said the bible was true, and it was in the bible, which we’ve already determined was true.”
I don’t mean to imply that they proved anything to me. Really, it just threw me because nobody seems to ever use Genesis as such a solid document from the start. Usually, we start with something more arguable and move into how Genesis is true by association or something. It’s no more solid, but I wasn’t prepared for it.
He made your argument a whole lot easier, though, didn’t he? I mean, you thought your explanation kind of fizzled because you hadn’t bothered to memorize dates. But that’s kinda beside the point.
So, Genesis is stated to be true. Presumably, that means all of it is literally true. Chapter One. Chapter Two. Compare. Drastically different creation myths, and the parts where they could conceivably match up (the sequence of inventions, for instance) entirely fail to do so.
Fast forward to the brutal and hateful eviction a bit later. Adam and Eve are the only humans on the planet — except for the bizarre Nephilim which presumably aren’t people (?) and may be “giants” (one read) or “heroes” (another read). Concede that one. Fundamentalists like to ignore it, anyway. OK, blah blah blah Nephilim. But not human families, right? The first human family is Adam’s and Eve’s. They begin their family with two sons. Son Cain kills son Abel. Cain is cast out, and:
Goes. And. Finds. A. Wife.
WTF? A wife? Where did she come from? Is she of the Nephilim? Ask your debate partner.
But, so, the First Family’s family progresses. Seth is born. We might forgive those misogynists for not including the names of the daughters, so there might be many. But that’s being generous, because all it means is that brothers and sisters start fucking rather than mother and sons start fucking. Right? Or are we back to Nephilim? But if the Nephilim can produce offspring with humans, they’ve got to be humans, no? So Adam and Eve couldn’t be the only humans. So, present options:
1. Adam and Eve were not the only humans created by God. Genesis: FAIL.
2. Adam’s and Eve’s line interbred with these bizarre Nephilim. Genesis: WEIRD AND INCOMPLETE.
3. Or, Cain didn’t find a wife; that was just a cover story, possibly to cover up the rampant incest. Genesis: ICKY.
And then sit back to hear the religionist explain why all the incest was, so to speak, kosher.
Oh in comparative religion class in high school, our teacher invited some Jehovah’s Witnesses to speak. We asked them that same question about why the incest was kosher, so to speak. This is what they said:
I. The first man and woman were perfect (I wonder if Eve was really hot then?) so their immediate descendents were immune to the ill effects of inbreeding. The more humans became inbred, the smaller their lifespan got (Think Methuselah and Noah), and the more prone to the dangers of inbreeding they became.
II. This was before God handed down the commandments to Moses, so it wasn’t technically a sin yet at that time. (!!!!!)
I am not making this up, this is what they believe.
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